eCommerce Undercover Podcast: How Does AI Create A Personalised Experience For Shoppers? I Namogoo

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Foreign [Music] Let’s go Martin I feel like we’re on a roll like We’ve done a lot of these recently I Feel good do you feel in a Zone I feel Like I’m in a zone right now definitely Feel amazing it’s great to be recording We’re great to be recording I feel like We’re entering like a different phase of E-commerce undercover if that’s fair you Know what I mean though right yeah Completely we do we definitely do that’s Great who who do we have with us today Ohad yeah And you’re going to have to pronounce Your last name because I got a couple of Questions for this but you’re the CTO of Namogu did I say that right correct you Said it amazing yes and how do I Pronounce your last name it’s a Grinchpan Greenspan now you know this I Have to ask this question Okay is this is this like an English Transliteration of a Hebrew name no it’s Not actually the there’s a famous guy in The US called The Ellen Greenspan yeah Used to be famous but yeah maybe yeah Maybe I’m a relative but maybe not Unlikely but I guess we come from the Same area in Poland so it’s a Polish It’s a Polish name okay and the the Rumors say that it’s um the roots of This uh last name is that people that

Dealt with In their knives and you know Um Really and then like metal Because pinchpan is like um The corrosia how do you say that when It’s uh when the how many when it Corrodes yeah so it’s like okay with Oxygen It’s the rust Liberty yeah that it Becomes like yeah it’s the rust yeah Exactly so this is uh the meaning of the Names apparently people who dealt with Metal things used to kill people you Know got it but are you are you based Are you based in Israel yes I’m Basically so are you Israeli and are you Israeli by birth yes 100 okay so I was Gonna because I was gonna ask you like The more the I wanted it to be like the Transliteration of a Hebrew name because I wanted to ask you like is it the shin The samach you know what I mean like I Was just curious like how it was spelled But now that doesn’t matter anymore so I Guess not yeah exactly hey by the way uh You didn’t ask but I will tell anyway Namogu the meaning of Namo action namogu Is the Hebrew word yeah that comes from The Bible and tell me In the plural tense of it uh it means Faded away so when you know when or Dissolves you know when a smoke Dissolves and Fades away and it’s called

Namog it’s very like poetical it’s very High language High Hebrew but namoku is In plural dissolved or faded away and Actually the first product of the Company is a product that takes that Handles all the interruptions on the Browser it makes them go away or Dissolve is that’s what namogu no movies And the forest okay story is that in one Of our trips and my partner and I Hemi And we went in Japan And we thought that namogo And we told them Japanese I mean a mogul Is like sounds Japanese right they said No No it doesn’t so so I’ve already hinted Like I don’t think a lot of people ask You about Hebrew letters right so I’ve Hinted a little bit about what I do and Don’t know but what you may or may not Know about me is I lived in Japan for 22 Years so namogu So the Japanese language is very um it’s Syllabic yeah so na mogu could be like Three Japanese syllables but I don’t Know what that word would mean to be Fair yes but yeah it sounds like Something is big Japanese Hi so that’s it wow Very nice Yeah as a matter of fact as a little boy I used to speak Hebrew as well so you Got that going for you a long time ago Yeah I mean that’s look if you go to

Yeshiva which nobody really knows that I Did you would speak Hebrew because you Studied in Hebrew yeah you’re like five Different people in one person Oh my god I think I’m more like 10 Different people with one person and That’s what I want to find but this Isn’t about me it’s about you and I want To know more about you to be fair so can You give us a little bit of your back we Haven’t had a lot of guests from Israel On is that true Martin did not let you We maybe one or two but she had not not So much but the Israel is Israeli Startup is amazing Mission let’s say Because it got really really famous for Us are you advertising now for Israel They don’t need this I have no idea to Be fair I I don’t know a lot about that So I’m really looking forward to learn Much more about what was going on in in Your company but also like in the world Israeli startup scene that would be Super great yeah so tell us about your Background if you don’t mind sure of Course so yeah I’m 43 years old I look Younger but absolutely 43. three Children 13. oh wow 10 and five and a Half Uh all are super super cute if you see The the piano behind me some all into Music uh all about creativity and Creation and since I was a very little Child and I think when you speak about

The Israeli industry I remember when I Was like three or four years old and Until today my mother kept telling me All the time think different think Different think different think Different interesting that’s how I grew Up And I think many of the Israeli Entrepreneurs and also the Israeli Nation is all about you know think Different being creative Uh do things you know quick because you Know Young country uh lots of enemies around Uh complicated history And it’s all about you know surviving And being fast and you don’t know what’s Going to happen like tomorrow And so it’s all about being fast and Creative so I think there’s a very good Vibe in the Israeli scene uh very Creative and because So there’s a like a like a dissonance You know the Israeli industry because The tech and also because of the Israeli Army yeah I actually came from the 8200 The elite intelligence unit because of The the Israeli Army and the tech Industry the tech um units in the Army Uh it creates a lot of tech you know Cyber security and it does and Everything and because the so very great Tech in Israel on one hand on the other Hand the market in Israel is very very

Small small yeah so no one works in the Israeli and no one works for the Israeli Market we always go abroad so can I ask You this though is this so I’m in Singapore now right Singapore’s Population in Israel’s population Depending on when you’re counting let’s Just call it six million right six five And a half six six million seven million People whatever as well at least nine Nine okay so even a little bit bigger Yes but the Singapore Market right just Like the Israeli Market excuse wealthy Right so GDP per capita is high yes and Higher and also the technical education Israel very different than in Singapore But still people here very educated is Israel a good test Market because Singapore is a killer test Market in Some ways yes but not in a lot of other Ways yeah go ahead yes I think maybe Israel in Singapore are Quite similar in the sense that Singapore also as far as I know seized Itself as a gateway to Asia a gateway to The world right so so very much like Israel we don’t look internally we look Externally so in some cases it’s good Some cases it’s I mean we don’t Contribute so much as much as I think we Should play to the Israeli market so Investing in the Israeli market and Making it better and I think the tech The tech the tech

Seen in Israel is very very Advanced and Also the medicine and everything you Know the other other parts as well but But the Israeli text Scene is very Advanced I think Primarily because of the Israeli Army Yeah well the armed forces from Singapore as well by the way that’s a Different story Can you can you talk a little bit about Your you’re the CTO right so maybe you Can talk a little bit about your Tech Background right in other words so I’m Sure you had a whole bunch of tech Education while you were in the armed Forces but before that where did you go To school yes so I went to school and I Did the bachelor’s Masters and PhD in Computer science and shocking I thought Initially that I’m going to be a Researcher so I went to IBM research Labs back in 2006 uh and I spent there a Few years and um I was where was that it Was in Haifa in Israel IBM research Labs back in the days maybe Still today they had eight research Labs Globally one of them is in California And we talked about California before in New York and France I think they have One India they have a few Um and the Israeli research lab is very Very Advanced and again as part of the Israeli scene and I was very I think I Was very different than most of the

Richest Researchers there and because I what Excited me the most is um is not Specifically the research but how we can Take it to the market And I found myself a raising Capital Inside IBM because the way that IBM Research Labs work Um you have projects so half of the Funding you get from the from the Corporate but how funding you have to Get yourself So I found myself usually it’s the top Managers you know deal with the funding Stuff and and money but since I I was Very excited about it I found myself a Founding projects initiating projects And raising funding from the outside Through grants through projects that I Led etc etc raised funding Started the project moved on raise Funding moved on race one so then I Understand that I’m actually an Entrepreneur I didn’t know what Entrepreneur is but I I thought I Understand it I I I’m an entrepreneur Inside IBM and then I decided to um to Leave at some point I spent there many Many years it was my best school ever as I oh yeah I owe them a lot What kind of projects sorry to Interrupted but what kind of projects Were you working on at IBM if you don’t Mind me asking a very cool project so

Maybe I think the most interesting one Was a project called stem is I think it Was spacious A simulator or something like it dealt Actually we built a simulator uh okay That how this is spread like infection Is a spread uh very very relevant for Today for 20 20 21. Um so what in the simulator you had like A map of the world You had all the connections of you know All the the the roads and all the Flights all the birds routes and Everything And then you could um you could infect One area and then with all the models uh You could watch what happened yeah what Would happen and then you could then put Strategies inside the model you would Say Okay I want to compare what would Happen if I closed a city in day three Or if I close if I shut down all the Flights in day five and then you could Run the simulators one side by side and You could test different strategies what Would happen And then there was like so when yeah can I ask you this so when covid was going On I mean this technology must have come In super handy was this being used as Well I wasn’t there uh you don’t know it Happened but I’m sure I’m sure it helped Because even before we had the like Various um diseases in 2000 yeah I think

It was the pig Uh flu and I think there was like a few And IBM sold this project to several Countries and Mexican people Mexico and Some others so this is one project Another one we uh built um Um models machine learning models for HIV for clinics another one was we Connected the we talked about Asia so we Built through a technology called Mashups We connected we built um a systems for Hospitals in Korea South Korea to Connect various systems through mashup Technology so I was in a healthcare Department and then at the end I moved To Um a social Technologies Group what we Did there is something super super Exciting and unique uh we were we were Developing games and this area in gaming Is called the serious games The idea of serious games is to take the Power of games right excitement and the Points and everything and put and and Use it for real real life problems so What we did in IBM we used games to Build Um dictionaries of words and connections Between words like glossaries in inside Organizations extremely fast so we took Um dictionaries that have been built for 10 years we built it through a game a Competitive game between thousands of

People inside IBM we built it in a few Days something that was built in in Through a competitive scoring system and Everything right we built dictionaries And glossaries for water the water Industry so many many things and I Became one of the global leaders of These serious games Industry uh there weren’t so many people That dealt with it the one in IBM one in Microsoft One in Google one in Washington University and super super Exciting field So do you feel like sometimes I mean You’ve worked on some incredible stuff Right that’s why I wanted to ask you Because you don’t just wake up one day And say I want to start this company That’s super data oriented that had all Has all these aspects to it that you Feel like can help e-commerce grow Without having some experience but You’ve already talked about virality You’ve already talked about gamification You’ve already talked about using data Do you feel like sometimes when you walk Around in your day-to-day life you just Kind of look at the world and just think While everything that I studied helps me Explain like the the living Universe Around me in a way that most people Don’t understand yes I think it’s a I think you’re exaggerating and I’m not I wouldn’t say that but I think I I

Think that the world is built of so many So many problems or so many things that Just don’t work properly and yeah that’s For sure that I look at the world I Think it’s it’s a it’s a it’s I think It’s a bit too too too big but I think If you look at um Many many things in the world you say Why why is it working that way I mean it Doesn’t make any sense I’ll give you an Example right um so one of the products That we developed in a mogu is a product That gives different different from Personalized promotions on websites Right so you spoke we spoke about Singapore so we’re now talking to Zalora In Singapore okay and we work with the Largest Brands globally JCPenney and Martin Spencer we work with all of them And H M and many many others and when You go to all of these websites although You and I and Martin we come with Different intent we’re different people Right we come with different content we Come with different data and even Behaviors a different history Etc different device different Environment And when all of us go to the website Um We actually get the same experience Right all of us completely same exact Thing yeah in terms of everything in in All in all aspects and in our case we

Look at promotions so although we come With different intent with different Data different history different Whatever We all get 20 discount for everyone one Size fits all like a billboard like a Billboard on the street and and it Drives me crazy because it doesn’t make Any sense no to have to have such a Generic and cold experience although We’re different people and yeah like I’m Like I’m never gonna buy a green shirt I Wear black shirts and if I if there’s a Promo on green shirts like I’m out I Don’t care and why why why why why do I Have to look at that way exactly yeah we Can do so much better so I think right It’s it’s not easy even even such a Small problem I’m not talking about the Global problems but such a small problem Like giving everyone the different the Right promotion at the right time Uh is so complex uh to to do it and to Do it to do it well can we back up can We back up for a second on this though Because this is super interesting to me Right there are big companies out there And Amazon kind of started this I don’t Know 15 years ago maybe more right if You bought this product or people that Bought this also bought this right this Is the beginning and the Genesis of Recommendation engines right but it Sounds to me that what you’re suggesting

Is this is not a recommendation engine This is deeper than that it’s like a Personalization engine maybe you can Back up a little bit and just say how This works I’m really curious sure sure So so the way we do it of course there Are many ways to deal with Personalization Specifically initially focus on Promotions okay so essentially if we Narrow down the problem the our goal is To allow let’s say Max and Spencer or JCPenney or h m Give them the technology to give Michael Or Martin The Right coupon at the right time okay So that’s okay that’s the small problem That we’re trying to solve Um and it’s a it’s a real challenge why Because uh we are we are different People we have different intent we have Different devices different uh different Uh likelihood to buy different uh We’re different people B where today We’re different than tomorrow and we’re Different yeah two days from now and Even in the morning we might we have Differently than in the evening right And even today now I’m different than I’m going to be into in two hours from Now and so it’s a dynamic environment All of it every everything is changing That’s on one hand on the other hand the Website is changing on the the other

Hand the trends are changing and the com Competition is changing so everything is Changing so a lot of moving Parts here And it’s super fluid right yeah the way That we decided to approach is it is to Try to predict using machine learning And AI technology that we developed In-house uh to predict at any given Moment and what is the probability of Martin or Michael to buy and to abandon Okay and it’s like we we yeah good I was Gonna say so I go to the zolada That’s a combination by the way it’s the Laura and Lazada in my brain because Those companies used to be more closely Related when they were rocket internet Companies right yes I go to lizard and I Want to buy a green screen right And I specifically type in Elgato green Screen And I got a bunch of other garbage Products that I don’t want to buy I’m Really curious how this works from a Namogu standpoint yes Yeah yeah just give me one second I’m Really curious right so let’s say let’s Say I’m just not ever been on a website Before ever and I haven’t been on the Internet before which is rare but let’s Just say it happens and I go to Lazada To buy a green screen what are we then Basing the promotions on is it just my Activity there are you waiting for me to Go around the rest of the internet and

Following me to see what happens there And then when I come back you give me Better promotions like I really want to Know in depth like how this works for Sure I’ll explain so go ahead it’s less For us the way that we address it today And it will change in the future it’s Less about giving you a specific Promotion to specific product Whether I should give Michael seven Percent off or 12 off or 12 or 20 15 or 25 or more or 32 yeah 32. why we stop So why not giving everyone 20 like today Right so if you go let’s take a step Back for a second If you and I go to booking or so the Travel industry really nailed it right So if you go to yeah let’s say you go to Agora uh sorry to um Or you go to uh to to or Expedia they actually nailed it right They for you and I will see different Rooms rates for rooms although we’re Looking at the same the same thing so Yeah they did they do it quite well There’s always way to room to improve But they do it quite well the e-commerce Industry is like 20 years ago it’s like 20 years behind the travel industry so What we’re trying to solve is instead of Giving everyone Michael and Martin 20 Off through a banner try to understand If Michael is worth 20 maybe 17 maybe 5 Maybe 27 maybe 32. why how do you know

Though yeah I’ll explain it just before That why why Not giving everyone 20. because maybe Martin would buy anyway so why if I Haven’t given Martin discount he would Still buy yeah why losing 20 of my Profit for Martin because it would buy Anyway on the other hand Michael is a Greedy person right as we know and and He might even know that I can read that Above your head and and for my kids it’s So mean 20 might might not be enough so If I give Michael 20 he would leave he Would abandon them and I would lose a Set so we see retailers today losing Twice on one hand losing profit on Martin on the other hand losing Transactions on Michael right so 20 for Everyone is not good it’s not good and As we say to our clients it’s so 2020 Right so you need to be we need to be Different We’re trying to assess at any given Moment and explain why how we do it We’ll try to assess What is the likelihood of Michael Dubai And when when will Michael abandon why Why we do these two things likelihood to Buy and time of Abandonment why it’s Like um so two analogies that we that we Use when we explain it is a CE cards Right so you don’t put you don’t want to Reveal all of your cards at the Beginning of the game right you you keep

Them close to your chest why because Because you learn over the throughout The game and you want to over the game You become smarter you gain more Knowledge and you can take different Actions as time goes by on the other Hand if you weigh too much you might Lose right yeah so in in other words if I gave Michael the discount on on the First page on the journey I might know I Might miss the information that he’s Looking for a green screen whatever Later on on the other hand if I wait too Long I might lose him because he was After a few pages he would go that’s one Analogy the second analogy is like Imagine that you go into a store of h m Right or Tiffany’s like see if Tiffany’s In Fifth Avenue If you experience it in the past The salesperson a good salesperson would Not reach out to you he would wait never Look at you yeah and what he would do he Would look at your watch he would look At what products you look at how nervous You are if you are like calm or what’s Your behavior and it would look at you Closely and then when when he would Reach out to you when he would think That you’re ready to buy or when there’s A risk that you are going to live right Then he would catch you and say can we Help you so this is exactly the analogy That we’re using we’re trying to assess

If Michael is going to buy or not and if So when when is going how do you but how Do you do that give me one second give Me one second because I want to tell you My Tiffany story so I went into Tiffany’s right With my girlfriend at the time who was Japanese yes and we there was like three White people standing in front of us Behind the counter we were just looking At diamonds and jewelry and stuff like That right So we were just speaking Japanese to Each other I’m sure you’ve done this You’re like nobody understands Hebrew Let’s just switch to Hebrew yeah yes but You’d be surprised like how well trained The people at Tiffany’s are because the The guy or the gal behind the counter I Can’t remember anymore at some point Just jumped in and had understood our Entire conversation exactly so they’re Trained to do that but I want to know What I want to know is how are you Training the AI and the ml to know we Are trying to do it as well so the way The way we do it is very unique and I’ll Explain I’ll explain how Okay deeply how It goes and so even before you start the Journey on the site like the store when You go into the store even before you Look at the jewelry by the way that you Dress up and the way that you um I mean When you enter the door they already

Know a lot about you they train they do People right so we do the same we do it And the unique thing is that we do it Without compromising the Privacy how do We do it it we look for example we Measure the speed of the device how fast Is your CPU the device CPU that’s so That tells you that tells you what our Economic situation in other words if I Have a brand new Mac Mac Pro or brand New Mac Studio you’re thinking it’s less About the which computer you have it’s More about what is how fast your device Is that’s one I’ll explain this what is That what does that tell you though Second the second Metric is how fast the internet speed is Why are these Interesting because of two things one They tell something about indirectly They tell something about your economic Ability right so situation yeah Situation if you have like a strong Device Is there’s a correlation that you’re Going to buy second when you have a Strong device and we talk about Experience and and customer Journey we Have a strong device and strong internet Uh you’re going to experience the Website much better than someone with Poor internet so and all all research Any research that you will find on the Internet shows speed matters yeah speed

Matters right so because of these two Aspects by measuring the speed of the Device and the internet I can already Tell what is your prediction what is my Prediction of you to buy that’s one So you tell me I’ve got to get a Crappier internet connection and a Really bad computer so I can get better Pricing go ahead but maybe but in big Numbers it doesn’t work right so people With whatever they have did we do that Another thing is we look at the browser Installs for example which is not Personal uh we look if you have shopping Tools installed like like Amazon Assistant or honey or shopping shopping Extensions in the browser internet or ad Blockers in in any you have no idea how Well It predicts if you’re going to buy or Not I mean how it’s correlated to buying Why why I don’t know why I don’t know Why God Knows Why and what’s interesting In machine learning and that’s I think The the change that you need you need to Do in your mindset It doesn’t really matter right in Machine learning it doesn’t really Matter why I mean we’re not trying to Understand the philosophy of the world We are trying to understand correlation Between metrics and conversion buying Retention lifetime value etc etc so it Doesn’t really matter of course we

Already we we have our assumptions uh But it maybe it’s the tech savviness Maybe things like that maybe it’s a I Mean in interactivity on the web Whatever right it doesn’t really matter So in machine learning you want to Collect as much information as you can And try to use it smartly to predict What you want to predict in our case if You’re going to buy when are going to Abandon if you’re going to come to Another session etc etc right and based On that we deliver the coupon Our strategy at the moment is to give The highest coupon to the ones with the Highest capability to buy And the highest risk to abandon wait a Second so it’s it’s reversal right in Other words if you’ve determined that Somehow I’m on a slow connection and I’m Just generalizing right and that maybe I have an older CPU in my computer and I Don’t have any ad blocking right so I’m Not Savvy about that type of thing but But maybe that just means that I’m Uninformed which means I don’t have a Ton of money you’re suggesting then that I’m not going to get the biggest coupon Because I’m still unlikely to buy is That what you’re saying yes so go go go Let’s go because it’s counterintuitive Right let’s let’s go to back to Tiffany’s and I think it will make it Intuitive can I can I tell you something

Else though because I’ve I’ve thought About this and I want to understand how It works in the physical world versus The digital world because I would go Into Tiffany’s almost on purpose in a Pair of shorts a T-shirt and flip-flops Just to trick them like that was part of My strategy yeah but but because I Wanted to be ignored the trained Salesperson would know by the way if you Act by the way that you I mean a trained salesperson you can Just you cannot fool A A well-trained Salesperson go ahead and and also And in what in the on the Internet is is Even much much harder because yeah it’s Impossible website you’re not trying to Fool people right you just brow no I Mean I’m trying but it’s not working You’re being yourself you’re being Yourself when you’re you’re welcome Instead of in front of people you can Try to fool them but you know a trend Salesperson would know right so it I Mean you can fully money for maybe one Minute but after like a few minutes You’re being yourself right you’re being Natural So we it’s not it’s a like Tiffany’s Like in Tiffany’s we would bet we would Put the highest bet On the ones that we believe they could Buy and they could buy a lot But they have a risk a high risk of

Abandonment right so can I ask you so Can I ask you this time yeah so you’ll Give me a 20 discount but will you then Increase the base price so that at the End of the day maybe I’m only getting a 10 or a seven percent discount you know What I mean because you could do Dynamic Pricing where like let’s say the thing Could cost offline A hundred bucks but you put the price up To like 117 so not 120 and then give me A 20 discount to get me down to like 90 Some you do that as well moment at the Moment Um we provide only the coupons we don’t Do the second part and the reasons we Will do it the reason for that is the The e-commerce industry is not yet Advanced enough and mature enough it Really is stuck there is not mature Enough to do Dynamic pricing like Expedia and Agoda and booking why but Why is that you’d think so it’s been Around for a long time right because Because Because when you work with and we and Expedia was a client of ours as well uh When you work with them so travel travel Companies Maybe because it’s online and they don’t Sell Goods uh it there there many of Them are startup companies or started From startup companies it’s very very Tech very tech savvy companies from the

Beginning yeah in the beginning when you Talk about JCPenney and and lows and I Have tons of respect to these companies Because these ones are we work with with Almost all of them and these the ones That I mentioned now are the the most Advanced Um companies in the world in the world Of retail but still They sell clothes they sell Furniture Right it’s like they don’t they’re not Startup internet companies Um and it just takes time so many of Them rely on Adobe and many of them rely On heavy technical IBM and the heavy Technologies and they’re progressing Really nicely but it just takes time so Many of them are heavy companies and Retail brick and mortar so right just Takes just takes time we need we need to Be patient but I think the the industry Especially after covet uh with the Online and everything we see them Adopting adopting the cool Technologies Because they understand that they need To to be better and to be more Competitive and to be isakim they’re not They’re less in the stores today you Need to be competitive online you need To be very personalized you need to be Very good and so we see them changing we Just takes time Can you can you talk about this too Because I think this is super

Interesting JCPenney right Lowe’s when You think about them you don’t think About them as tech companies at all you Just think about them as kind of Old-fashioned retailers and you’re right It is kind of impressive because they’ve Been around for three or four Generations right so they must be doing Something right JCPenney’s interesting Because it’s been through a few Different iterations but when a company Like namogu goes in and says we can help You online because we know all these Things about all this data that you’re Gathering both from like a like a blank Slate standpoint right when Michael Comes to your website for the first time And you know nothing you can tell these Things and those things from this data That we’ve already discussed But then if you dig a little bit deeper You can do so much more yes like at the Beginning what’s the response and what Does it take to get them over the line For them to say I get it now yes how can we use this you Know I mean like what is what is The Epiphany for them yes yes so I think It’s all about data so I think once you Show them strong data right they get it They get it they have amazing data Themes Um and once you show them proof Uh how data can change their life or can

Change their bonus or can change their You know their revenue and they get it They get it and this the the more the Event the more advanced ones uh take Take immediate action hey I’ll tell you Something that we’re currently doing With lows one of the top 10 retail Companies in the US and it surprises how How Um How there they took what we showed them Forward and I’ll explain it again so What we released them about about six Months ago is a product called customer Journey OS the the goal of customer Journey OS is to become the operating System of the customer Journey Essentially it’s a data element that we Are exposing on every page on every Session That the retail side the Commerce site And all the third parties running on it Can fetch the data that they want from The OS and use it one of the data points That we that we expose there is the the Internet speed that we mentioned and the Device CPU availability so these are two Data points that we use for ourselves to Calculate intent but over time we showed It to lows and they said can you expose The data to us in real time we asked Them why they said because we want to Understand if the speed of the internet And the speed of the device impacts

Buying What we did we exposed it and we showed Them through very like clear graphs that Fast internet or actually slow internet Is strongly correlated to abandonment For sure and what they’re going to do Now which is amazing amazing amazing and The tons of respect to what they’re Gonna do they’re going to build with us An alternative checkout page that will Take all the unnecessary services and Elements from the checkout and we’ll Give yeah exactly and we’ll give a Lightweight checkout page for the ones That have slow internet and slow device And we can enable it Yeah we believed it It will change the conversion Dramatically So there was and Martin you should know This right I want to bring there was a Company what was the name of the guy Martin who owns who runs I’m stacion if Xavier Neil Wright started this company In France and Mark I mean Martin tell me Where I’m wrong here but he started this Company called zero and the idea Initially was he was just going to give Away internet service for free yeah free Because the employee services around Internet service were so much more Profitable than the monthly fee you Would pay would it make sense for a Company at some kind of scale like JCPenney even in the neighborhoods where

It can operate and deliver easily just To give away high-speed internet so that Then they can convert those customers Into higher paying and bigger long-term Value people Um Um maybe maybe why not though right Because if that’s if that’s one of the Key differentiators because because Again it’s not only about retail it’s Only also about the Commerce at home Right especially people buy from remote So giving internet in the area might be Good for the store actually it’s a good Idea and we can raise it thank you That’s free by the way or it might be Easier instead of providing like Wi-Fi And you know it’s like a donation maybe Maybe Um just make your website lightweight It’s like just remove remove like big Videos large videos media files uh Services You know so the web how about this oh God seriously how about this how about Sign up for Like the JCPenney or the Lowe’s loyalty Program and we’ll pay your high speed And it will upgrade your Internet to to Fiber for a year kind of thing every Year that you maintain the Loyalty Program will pay for your internet a Great day great idea a great idea I Agree okay I agree

They might do it because you know it’s a Big company they have tons of customers And you might be helping Your customers to buy us elsewhere as Well but if maybe though what I like I Liked about your idea is that when you Tie it to the Loyalty then you create Engagement you create engagement exactly To my loyalty program at JCPenney Exactly great idea I am not I haven’t Thought about it maybe they haven’t I’m Sure that they haven’t as well Um but yeah you can do so much with the With the data and I think the real Change Um happens when you see strong data and When you have also a very easy way to Leverage it and to make use of it right So I think yeah that’s what we’re doing In a MoGo and we’re doing it with many Many as like big retailers uh Argos in The in the UK an agent name and JCPenney And Lowe’s and dollarship club and many Many I mean very well Advanced and Retail and commerce companies right yeah Super exciting so so talk to me about This deep personalization right so let’s Say Martin and I who are very different People I’m twice his age he’s from France I’m from California like we’re Very very different right Um That we come in but we have the same Machine we live in the same neighborhood

So like when we first appear on a Website we kind of look the same yes but Then you notice some different Behavior You start Gathering data on us yes how Then you do this deep personalization go Ahead exactly so when you land uh the The mistake here is that you think you Lend with no history but actually At the moment you land we learned so Many things about you even before you Looked at a product right so go ahead Everyone from the get-go right so I can Know that for example location you Mentioned I know your browser I know What’s installed there if you have an ad Blocker or not if you have whatever What’s your Speedy internet what’s your Device CPU availability so even before You land I know so many things about you As soon as you land for example the the Page you land you landed on if you Landed on a pro initially on a product Page on a category page on a home page On a my account page it tells also so Much about you and about your intent at This given session and where you came From you came through affiliate you came From Google you came from Facebook you Came from you came organically is it Your first time is it your second time When was your first time when was your Second time etc etc so how many page Views you go through uh how many uh Product page views you’re going through

Successively right one after the other Or you go to a product category product Category homepage you’re going around or You’re like super determined on on Products from the same category so yeah As you mentioned as soon as you land and As soon as you browse we start gathering Information At any given moment we send it to the Engine and again the the goal here and It’s something very important The goal the way that we look at the World is not To fool you is not to to watch you is Not to a not to be the big brother is to Give a JCPenney h m the ability to give Michael and Martin the best experience That’s what guides us because when you Have a good experience you will buy of Course if you’re beneficial for JCPenney It will be an official for you because You found what you need and then when You have a good experience it will come Again and that’s where you will benefit They will benefit we create this Engagement so the idea is not to be the Big brother the idea is to give to to Learn what you want and give you the Right thing at the right time and and to Do it with data features and and data Points and segments that do not Compromise your privacy because as we All know you’re from California CCPA Martin is from France uh gdpr so it it

Only it becomes worse and worse and Worse And for the retail and more complicated For the retail companies and for the Advertising and space and for the Internet companies to to deliver good Experience because it just makes it Harder so how do we how do we make Online service I want to say like more Nuanced and let me give you an example I was in Singapore for a month in June Right and I stay at this hotel and I Kind of walk around the corner and I go To this restaurant the first few times I Went there they didn’t know I was going To come back every day almost for the Whole month but by the time I left like They felt like they were my friends they Were like bye have a safe flight all This kind of stuff right When I came back a few days ago they all Kind of recognized me but were a little Bit like backed off like let’s just let Him settle in do you know what I mean so It wasn’t like the Hard Sell of let’s Get you the same exact thing you had Last time you were here do you know it Was very subtle and nuanced and I Thought that’s super good training yes How do we achieve that same thing that Super deep personalization because That’s what that was right it was very Personalized sales for me they Remembered my name

Made me feel at home like I want to keep Going back there I feel bad when I eat Somewhere else yeah exactly and and I’m Sure that they do it of course to to Keep I mean to to generate more Revenue But I think it’s they know what they’re Doing yeah they’re not silly they know What they’re doing exactly exactly they Know what they’re doing but I think They’re also enjoying giving you a good Service it’s not about only about money It’s about no no no good service about We’re we’re humans right it’s it’s also About connection and personal Relationships and I think it’s harder on The offline to do it because you visit Singapore not you visit this restaurant Or this hotel or this this place not Every day so it’s easier on the online It’s easier on the online because you’re Always next to your computer yeah but How do you make it subtle though how do You make it subtle yeah the key here I Think is giving you Um good content personalized content Good experience to make you come every Day for example I’m a big fan of Amazon You know I love Amazon and I hate Amazon At the same time I’m an Amazon freak and just every day Or two I just go to Amazon I just you Know I get their emails I go around Right I even don’t know why I just go I Just I’m addicted to opening the app and

Just going on Amazon and and it’s just It’s like me going to the Apple Store I Would ride my bicycle in Tokyo against It just to go to the store not to buy Anything exactly I’m an apple freak when I go to Fifth Avenue in Manhattan I’m gonna be There in two weeks I just go to Apple Store I don’t know why because it’s fun It’s fun just fun it’s the way I buy Microphones so I don’t need this Microphone I just wanted another Microphone Another one not about Experience and if you go to to the store In Fifth Avenue in in New York yeah just Look around and see how many customer Service people they are they are are There he’s like Like a hundred of them right because They want to give you the best Experience and and it’s like um it’s Like a it’s like it’s like a candy store Right it’s like it just yeah and I think It’s all about the content and about Being personalized and about being Interesting and relevant so you want if They retail us and that’s what we talk With our clients you make your website Dynamic on a daily basis at personalized And changing customers will come every Day if it’s the same static website Every day Why should I come tomorrow right so and Then that’s where the engagement starts

So If you feel like this should be an Engaging experience and if you feel like It should be personalized and you’re Already calling this like the customer Journey OS that’s operating system for People that are scoring at home We believe and I’m curious what you Believe or we completely believe that E-commerce isn’t solved yet and one of The things that that I think is going to Happen for sure is that it’s going to Become way more immersive in the same Way that when I walked into the Apple Store in ginzo or the one in on Fifth Avenue in New York I felt like I was part of this big Active engaging environment right we can See that the internet is going that way And we can talk about the metaverse or Not talk about the metaverse if we want But we know that there’s been technology That’s been developed whether it’s Unity Or Unreal Engine that build these Amazing experiences In gaming yes when do we take those and Build that type of operating system for Retail so that when I go to the JP JCPenney site or when I go to the low Side or when I go to the h m site I Don’t just feel like I’m on a website But I feel like I’m in a physical place Even if I don’t have goggles you know I Mean are you thinking this far ahead yes

Thinking I want to build that immersive Environment so that when I do go I can Like literally ride my bicycle there or Theoretically write it there and have The same amount of fun that I have now When I go to Ginza or to the store You totally got it so the good news is That it’s already built so the customer What does that mean that we mentioned Yeah is already deployed today on 1.5 Billion Unique monthly visitors so namogo’s Technology today is running on all Visitors of h m marks and Spencer Lowe’s JCPenney Argos Dollar Shave Club R6 all These companies and it’s already running On 1.5 billion unique monthly visitors So it’s there okay the challenge now That we’re now working with our clients Is to start take advantage of it start Using it and I think that the way that I Think it should be done is through small Steps right for example I’ll give you a Very small example go ahead Um When you went to when you go to right and you see that you Look at the room And it’s written uh 20 people are Looking at the same room now or five People already Reserve this room in the Past hour A it creates this gaming competitive I Mean maybe someone will take my room and

I have to do it now it creates this urge And and and and Urgency to take action but it also I Think Subconsciously I think it also Makes you feel that you’re not there Alone right it makes you feel that You’re part of something you’re part of A community of people that is looking Now at the room so really is it just me I just feel annoyed but anyway God be Annoyed but it makes you buy but I think To me I mean the feeling that I get is That I I’m I’m a part of something I’m Part of something so I think if websites Become more Um Less cold you know and more like more Like a warm and inviting and dynamic and Personalized and and based on community And it becomes not like a a website when It feels like some kind of an experience I think there then the change will Happen I think then the change will Happen because because you will feel Like you’re in like in a store you feel Like in your own Apple store or or you Know a physical store and I think that’s Part of the challenge that the websites Needs to need to face today because you Want to feel I think so and and that’s The reason why I think why retail stores Do not disappear because we’re humans we Want to come we want to go out social

Yeah you can’t do that online yeah we Wanted to see people we want to talk to People And I think maybe it’s metaverse maybe Something else I think when websites Become like more Dynamic and not just to you know not Flat and I I think then the change will Happen there then have you seen have you Seen sort of a mindset or a structural Change in the thought processes of the People with whom you’re working at some Of these big companies we’re we’re at The at the outset you had to go to them And say you need to use this or you need To use that here’s the data that Supports it and now they’re coming to You and saying hey you know maybe you Haven’t thought about this but we’ve Been pouring over the data Electronically and we think if we did X Or Y We’d be able to be so much more Effective and now you’re using their Kind of recommendations to you to test And then delivering that product to them Do you see that happening now too Because that would be cool right we see It happening because you know we start You know we we have quite a good Footprint today and also Executives it’s Relative a small relatively small Community you know exactly come you know They switch jobs and they talk to each

Other and they have communities right so Yeah we do have inbound interest from Companies that want to use our Technology for sure yes yeah now so you Said you loved Amazon Right which is a very strange thing to Say not a lot of people are out there Stomping the ground going oh my god Amazon greatest experience how many People love Amazon they just don’t admit Yeah maybe that’s true fair enough fair Enough maybe that’s the way people feel About uh I don’t know double Cheeseburgers as well exactly But you’re competing with them at some Level right because what you’re trying To do is give every individual retailer Of any size really the same or even Better technology than Amazon has right Because you can develop this externally And not just build it for yourself yes When you when you look at the way the Retail online Retail Landscape is Changing what do you see coming down the Line right because my feeling is that Amazon today looks super powerful it Looks like they’re unbeatable But I was having this conversation with Someone a few days ago like IBM looked The same way in 1983 and 1984 just Non-stoppable what’s your view on this Now because you’re in it every day I Think that I think the change that we See between retail companies and Amazon

And it’s not for the benefit of Amazon I Think Amazon believes and maybe today It’s true but I think it won’t last for Long Amazon believes that they can do Everything by themselves they have the Best base data people best best Everything and it’s you you can do Everything by yourself I mean they’re Very no one succeeds alone very very Self-centered and also Google and also You know they they don’t buy companies They don’t buy any third-party product They everything they build in-house Because they have the best people in the World and they don’t and they don’t and I think they’re losing a lot and I think The other companies like JCPenney La Closed like h m Are more modest more modest in in that Sense and they they understand that they Cannot develop a sophisticated things so They understand that they need to buy And I think then that’s where they Develop so much and because they they’re Looking they’re always looking this They’re scouting and they’re looking for Companies that can make them Um faster and by the way we saw Um We did we did the research and we did Like an internal like a study in namogu And we saw strong correlation between Companies that took namogo or didn’t Take namogu as a service and if they

Succeeded or not and we saw like a Strong correlation not because namoku is Special because it tells something about The company that they want to adopt new Technologies and companies like normal Not just Harry namoku but it does Something about the the the vibe and you Know by the way one of our club maybe Our biggest client in India not not Biggest but more Maybe the the best company that they Have in India a company called boat Both lifestyle it’s a the fifth largest Wearable tech companies in the world They send it’s the fastest growing d2c Company in India they sell iPhones Apple Watch cables you know things like that Like Tech you know like phones earphones Uh things like that and They always say about themselves that The culture of the company is all about Experimentation yeah it has to be trying That’s whatever that’s what every Startup company is to be fair just one Gigantic ongoing experiment exactly and If you look at their graph they’re like Exploding and yeah and companies you Know old companies like Macy’s and you Know without mentioning too many too Many of them without mentioning Macy’s They they’re stuck they’re stuck yeah Trying new things so at some point like You mentioned IBM at some point they Will just disappear and so I think about

Amazon they’re great I think they have Great technology they change the world Many worlds I think for sure but they’re They’re quite you know Into themselves and not opening Themselves to to the world and they Think they create enemies and they don’t Benefit from many many cool technologies That that are there outside so at some Point I think it will be In their disadvantage but does Amazon Use technology like yours maybe they Build it themselves but do they use the Same data port and David trying to use The same the same idea of what you’re Doing to increase our conversion we Don’t they don’t I I’m sure that they’re Using other things but they don’t use Things that we do but I’m sure that They’re using all kinds of Technologies To uh to to do what they do because they Do extremely well so yeah Okay okay that’s interesting but I would Ask one more question Yeah go for it I’m really wondering Wondering one thing is like because we See a lot of Studies and research on the  Learn How To Start Your Side Hustle The Same Way I Started Mine In Just 90 Minutes">marketing Side of e-commerce of people saying you Know like Japan behaviors of the people Are changing people are buying like We’re buying faster before and now they Take more time you know to to compare Competitors to grow on social media to

Maybe talk to your customers reports and All of this thing but maybe like what You’re doing on your side is is actually The reverse is not because people are Changing just because your website maybe Might not be optimized enough to to Convert or all of these people but if You have 1.5 billion unit visitors yeah A month which means like you have data On what other people actually doing Right and so my first person would be Like how long like how many years of Data you have right now and are you able To see trends like Behavior Behavioral changes Trends in the buying Process basically of people of the mass Market right because the value to h m or All of these Brands like this are people Really buying different now than five Years ago do they really do that or not Yes so I think yeah I think you started You said it right so we do see great Changes in behavior of course people are People and you know we’re the same People that we were two years ago but I Think Um the way we buy now is different than A year ago or two years ago during covid And four years ago uh there’s a there Was like um you know we were from retail To no retail everything of the stores Shut down in in a month and then Everything switched online so and people Run like crazy and because of the the

Stores were closed and the skies were Closed and you cannot travel All the money was was was switched to to Buying things on Amazon on JCPenney on Walmart Etc so we saw like a spike of Websites being built so everyone opened The Shopify store right and also people Bought like they they were stuck at home And you want to feel good and you want To buy something for yourself and you Want to uh and people start buying like Crazy and because you could not travel All the money that we are used to be Spent on travel went to Commerce and Then when the skies opened And the stores opened again we see the Buying went going down on e-commerce Because the money will again was spent On vacations to Thailand to Singapore to Whatever so people are less buying today And also they’re more buying in the Street again Uh so yeah the the world is changing the Buying behavior is changing and I think Another Trend that we’re seeing today is That because of the Privacy gdpr CCPA Privacy constraints and it’s way more Difficult to advertise to advertise well On Facebook on Google Etc yeah we see The quality of traffic coming from Facebook and Google to websites going Really really low I mean if you look at Conversion of Facebook interesting it’s Like a 20 of organic traffic so it’s

Just crap crap traffic it’s like they Because I I think they’re trying to to Throw arrows but they just they just Miss all the time yeah so and and and It’s not good so we the trend that we See in e-commerce companies and we’re Part of the trend is that e-commerce Companies find themselves instead of Buying buying uh visitors from Mark Zuckerberg They find themselves investing more in The in the in the visitors that came Organically and in visitors that Actually are my visitors we spoke about Loyalty I want to invest more in my Customers than spending so much money on New visitors all the time because it’s Just crap so yeah so everything we we Know this from our own experience as Well and Martin this place direct like This confirms exactly what we think About that all right I’m Gonna Let You Go this has been amazing great truly Amazing and I would really just want to Thank you for coming and doing this I Want to make sure I pronounce your name Right oh hot Greenspan the CTO of namogu Not a Japanese name yes thank you so Much comes the name comes right out of The Bible kind of very expressive word I Like this it’s like this Dissolved kind of thing Thank you so much for doing this great Thank you very much for inviting me

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